It’s Okay to Take Risk With Support

Howdy. How’s it going, Zeb?

Good to see ya.

Your investment in Zebulon was almost $300 thousand and driving the profit and everything we worked on – was your investment in Zebulon worth it at this point? Oh, a hundred percent. I mean, from Day One it was worth it. I saw that and like, I mean, yeah. There’s some risk, right, with any investment there’s risk that maybe expectations don’t play out. But very quickly I was aware of just the confidence I felt as a business owner, to have the support, guidance and mentorship from you and your team was worth it 100%. Like, one of the best investments I’ve made in the business was pursuing your support with our business.

Alright, this has been an adventure. Oh. We started out wanting to do something by the river, and then … it just goes sideways. Yeah.

So. You’re exploring and adapting to the forest. Exactly. Oh wow.

There’s where we can see what we’ve got going on. That’s cool.

Awesome. I’m impressed that this is a pretty stellar setup, man. There you go, it’s upside down, but … Okay. Well that’s good.

It’ll work.

I like that.

Sweet.

All right. Moses. Thank you for joining on the Fireside chat today.

Yeah. Yeah. Looking forward to this, so

First in-person Fireside Chat, so … Yeah. Of many. To come. Yeah, yeah.

So… today what I’d like to go through is just the journey that you’ve had, really, basically since the inception of your business ownership when we first got started. Yeah.

2019. Yup. Was it? I think so.

Mmhm. Yeah.

Yeah, just a young whippersnapper. I was. Just flying solo at that point. And I remember reaching out to you and being like, Zeb, I wanna work with you and you were like, Okay, let’s circle back to this in a little bit. And then I think you were still getting sorted out back then, too.

Yeah. When I met you on Main Street. Oh really?

Yeah, like, you had that upstairs office across from 11th street station … I think that’s the first opportunity we connected. I don’t remember exactly how the connection was made initially, but … uh huh. Yeah. I met you up in the office.

Like, okay, this is going to be a good thing. Let’s circle back in like six months, and then, here we are. Cool. Six years later.

Yeah, so. I’m going to give a little … just to give the viewers here a little bit of the context. Kinda some of that growth, right. You already acknowledged, 2019 the business started, solo, by yourself.

And the business you have right now is a very different business. It’s not even the same, yup. Not even the same. So … in context, and getting to some of my cheat sheet notes I’ve got here.

I love it. So people can understand just the power and the weight of what’s happened really from the last five years or so. Mmhmm.

So I looked back at 2020, cause that was the first full year you had. You started in 2019, partial year. So 2020 was your first full year. You ran at $150,000 in revenue, k? You were running solo, so your profit, and we’re gonna call this the Net Operating Income number, basically the profit before owner’s paid, was at $109,000. Okay?

We had a $5,000 consult that year. Yeah. And that was just like that, “all right, well let’s do a little bit.” Let’s get Moses on the right track and connect shortly after. Yeah.

So we connected the next year in 2021, and the amount of growth you had between Year One and Year Two, you were at $305,000 in revenue. So, 2xed, literally 2x, just over 2x the revenue. And the profit was $188,000. K?

This is the first year that you hired Caleb as well. Yup, yup.

And so that was a big step, right? You ran most of the year solo still, hired Caleb, I remember that initial hire was concerning but it was exciting.

Mhmm. It was a good next step, but it was definitely a leap of faith. To make that… that commitment to him and to myself within the business at that time. Like, am I going to have enough work? And can I create the systems I need to have someone feel stable and safe within my business? So that was a big year for that.

And I’m gonna jump over. So we’re gonna go past ’22 to ’23, right? Cause otherwise we could spend all the time just literally talking year by year. But between ’21 and ’22, so over a two-year time, you went from that $305k in revenue to $825,000.

So over a 2x leap in revenue in a two-year time period. That Net Operating Income number was sitting at now $242,000, so just under a quarter million.

Our retainer, in working with each other at that point, was at $54,000. And you jumped to thirteen employees. Mmhmm. [Laughs] Yep. Wow.

That was that year you started running like a real business. Yeah. Yeah, it was full-on at that point. It was working independently of me. I think I was still looking at work during that timeframe, just a little bit, still consulting, but that’s where the culture was outpacing my influence a little bit. Yep.

And I think it was that year also, so prior to this point we were looking at your, you know, duties and what was bogging you down and what you enjoyed and what you didn’t enjoy. And in this time period we ended up hiring Aliyah to help with some of the administrative stuff, staying on top of phone calls.

You had Caleb still. Thomas stepped on. And you had actually started scaling out to a crew to get to the 13 people.

With that …

I think that was the year that we recognized the next delegation that needed to happen was training other people into sales. Yep. A hundred percent.

I’d become so emotionally involved in it. Put so much pressure on myself to close sales, and to create a sustainable ecosystem for my employees, that I was often pricing work emotionally, and not necessarily … I was like, I need to win this job whether we make any profit off it or not. We need to … I just need to get more work. I need to have people receiving consistent paychecks. I need to keep the system going.

And so, I realized quickly the challenges that came with that. And that’s where we both recognized the need to get someone else into that position, to, yeah, do that for me. So. Yep.

And there’s some other things, in this part and around this time period too. We really started diving into your Ideal Client Profile, you had already acknowledged wanting to just capture any kind of business from anybody, right? Driving literally all over town, just spending money going down to Bayfield, over to Rafter Jay, up North Valley … you spent more time in the truck than you did in the trees. Mhmm. It’s true.

Both on the sales side of it, having very long days of just commuting through town. Which, it’s a beautiful spot, it’s not all bad. But um, yeah, really seeing the need to decrease our service area so we could provide the highest-quality experience for those who wanted to invest in our business.

Let’s dive into that one a little bit more thoroughly. Sure, yeah, I love it.

So the next jump that I’m gonna go through is from … so that was in ’23. Now we’re gonna go up to ’25, right?

So in another two-year time period, and this was last year … Yeah.

$825,000 to $1.5 million. Nearly a 2x jump in two years, again. Net Operating Income is now $300,000, so you’ve crossed the $300k profit number. At 14 employees, so we’ve maintained that stable base.

And, the retainer that we’ve been working in for the last couple years at this point was $88,000 a year. And accumulated, at this point we’ve been … your investment in Zebulon was $300,000. Mmhmm.

So to go from $150,000 to $1.5 million, and driving the profit and everything we worked on, was your investment in Zebulon worth it at this point?

Oh, a hundred percent. I mean, from Day One it was worth it. I saw that and like, I mean, yeah. There’s some risk, right, with any investment there’s risk that maybe expectations don’t play out.

But very quickly I was aware of just the confidence I felt as a business owner, to have the support, guidance and mentorship from you and your team, was worth it 100%. Like, one of the best investments I’ve made in the business was pursuing your support with our business.

Oh, thank you. A hundred percent. I mean, I mean that. So … I couldn’t do this, man, this being a business owner is hard. You know, there is, there is some challenging parts of it and, um, cause especially I didn’t go to business school

I have always been kind of a crafty little business guy, mowing neighbors’ lawns and stuff, and felt like I was making pretty good money back walking dogs when I was in high school, but, like, I’d never been formally trained to be a business owner.

And so, to have that support and guidance, and learning opportunity, was a necessary step in the evolution of my knowledge and my confidence in pursuing something as risky as starting and owning a business.

You know, during this time period from, you know, 2020 to last year, did you pursue any other kind of business education or curriculums, or …

Um, no. Not formally. I mean, we would attend conferences that our industry would host, and maybe there’s a little bit about business, but they weren’t business conferences. So, no, this is entirely on the Zebulon experience. I mean, no additional, external influences, aside from what you have offered.

You know, one of those things that I called out real fast, too, and just doing this with other providers, is you’ve got the people that take the advice and run with it, and those that, you know, kind of just hear it and sit on it. Mhmm.

And, you know, I attribute 100% of your growth to being willing to listen, applying everything we talked about. And sometimes it was just like, whoah, Moses, this is theoretical right now! Let’s not get into this quite yet! And you’d be like, “I’m doing it! I’m doing it!” All right, bud.

It was always presented: Crawl, Walk, Run. And, like, we’re not crawling. We’ll walk if we’re tired, but we’re in it to run it. I mean, this is a marathon, and I started off as a business owner with a “sprint” perspective, and I’m just gonna sprint as long as I can.

Hopefully everything falls into line and I can sustain that. But, like, that Walk, Run, that’s like the ultramarathon-mindset of just, like, we’re … this is six years of a hundred-year-old business, and what decisions do we need to make now? How can we guide the trajectory so it’s even more sustainable in the future? And so, yeah. Crawl, Walk, Run.

I consider those three different pathways. So, yeah.

You definitely lean towards the run. Oh, I love it. Yeah.

And I even remember there being times where Caleb, Thomas, and Codi, too, the other manager that you brought in administratively … they’d be like, can we just take a slow-down year?

And we were gonna make last year a slow-down year for you. Yeah, there’s no slow-down years.

And because they were just rocking at sales, and all the components to it, it didn’t up slowing down at all either. Yeah, not at all, no. I think the reputation ensures success, and we celebrate the success within our administrative team, and we’re supportive of our challenges when they arise. There’s no … there’s no deviation of a long-term run. So, yeah.

So I’m going to give one more little segment of this, kind of, where we’re at now, what’s on the horizon for just this year, k? Yup.

I’ll put the numbers aside and then we’ll just get into literally talking more details in the journey where you’re at, where you’ve come from. Where you’re at, and where you’re going to go. Sweet.

So we’re looking at our retainer being north of $120,000 this year. And so we’ve got some really, what I would say is kind of advanced-level initiatives that we’re going to get into.

And the reason for that is what we’re standing down the barrel of right now. Yeah.

So, here’s what we got for 2026, ok? So at this point, our original goal was $2.3 million in revenue, so this is about $800,000 over last year. Last year was $1.5, this year our goal is $2.3.

Last year’s net profit was $300,000. This year we’re anticipating $857,000. Those are our original jumps. So $500,000 dollar jump in profit, ok? After our retainer.

Year-to-date. So get these stats. And I don’t know if you know this yet. Okay.

So year-to-date last year, k? You’re at $460,000 and $25,000 profit, right, we’re coming out of that winter season coming into the summer season. Yeah.

The dry months, if you would. K … So far- oh and our goal to be on track for that $2.3 million was $704,000, okay? Mhmm. So again, a significant jump over last year, but because of the changes and some off-season efforts, the net profits goal was gonna be $200k, year-to-date, ok?

So from basically breaking even, to, almost your best historical net profit in the first five months. You ready for where we’re at? Let’s hear it.

Okay. So you’re already at $881,000 revenue. You’re already at $367,000 in profit. What I have projected, if we maintain this trajectory, will be around $3 million, maybe just shy of $3 million revenue.

So that’s a 2x over last year in just a single year. From $1.5 million to $3 million revenue, but this is the real kicker.

We’re looking at, probably, anywhere between $1 to $1.5 million in net profit. Wow.

My guess is we’re going to fall in probably around $1.2 to $1.3, you know, depending on some of these advanced-level initiatives that could very well be, again, distributions to employees and some other things that would drive that down a little bit. Right?

But that’s intentional. Uh-huh. That’s a 5x increase over last year. Wow! K?

So I just wanted to kind of let that settle in a little bit with where you’re at right now. Yeah. Okay.

And these aren’t fake numbers, right? No, no they’re not. People listening on-screen are probably, like, this is unrealistic and, like, pie-in-the-sky stuff. But the journey, since the beginning, we thought was pie-in-the-sky. Yeah.

I mean, we’ve always had lofty goals for the business. And ultimately it’s a reflection of the energy maybe a business owner has to contribute. And I’ve put a lot of energy into it. And we set goals, and this is intentional.

This isn’t by surprise. It’s … I’m always a little bit surprised. Like, wow, really? Okay! I’m always a little bit surprised, but every step I’ve taken in this journey has put us into this trajectory.

Oh, yeah. You’ve had your bumps and bruises. It hasn’t been easy. Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. I think a lot of those have healed, and they’re in the past. Not to say we don’t anticipate challenges in the future, but a lot of that was historical, just energy and time and learning investments, and I think we’ve gained a lot from those reflections, and here we are now.

So reflecting on the last, you know, six years – 2019 to this year – I guess seven years. What have been the most impactful things for you personally, professionally, as the business owner? And then, for the business itself?

Ooh. Great question. Let’s see here, so most impactful is … I think that mindset of “doing it alone” to having an opportunity to have support, and recognizing early on I need support, and if I’m going to be successful in this, and sustain it, and survive it, then I’m gonna need support.

So, drawing on that early, and being very intentional about seeking that as I continue to grow. And so that’s like, bringing you and your team on very early in the process – I need support, I don’t know how to do the business part of it. To, like, I need support, I need the crew part of it, and then I need support in the sales side of it, so we need to bring our consultants in. We need support in the administrative side, so I think it’s ultimately recognizing I need help. And acting on that.

And creating a very intentional network of people that can kind of hold me as a safety net. I can make impulsive decisions, I can kind of just do it by feel, and then there’s this ecosystem around me that just kind of makes sure I’m safe in that plan. So, I mean, that’s a big part of it, and like being rooted in education is a huge part of it as well.

I mean, demonstrating professionalism, industry-leading certifications, and our commitment to growing as a business has helped a ton in that as well.

And then, my responsibilities move more from day-to-day tasks into guiding and leading our team. And now my responsibility, now I’ve learned how to be supported, I’m offering support to those people in their journeys as well. So I think ultimately that’s … that’s the evolution and why we’re here now.

So you acknowledge education, right? Yeah. The support. Mhmm. So, support in that through this time period, I’m not in the grind. Yeah. With the business, with you. I’m not emotionally tied to you. We connect at the very beginning of it with our Multi-Vision exercise. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. Right?

You know, what is it that you want for the business? What do you want for you personally? What do you want financially for yourself as well as for the business? Yep.

And then, back then I actually called it “The Ideal Life” and “The Ideal Business.” Remember that? Yeah, yeah.

And we articulated it. And you put in the details as, like, I want to be able to still sit under the trees and look at the sky, and enjoy. Yeah. And the education was important to you and the community and everything else, right? So we casted that, and I remember you saying, I remember putting into it, like, what do you want in that three-to-five years? Yeah.

And it was like, at that three-year mark we pulled it up, and we read it and you were just, like, this is nuts. This is exactly what we described. Oh, totally. Yup, and so that’s where it’s been very helpful. Like, I think there’s kind of a foggy future of owning a business. Of just, what is … what is it gonna be? Without intentionality it could be any direction and I think the long-term goals, and doing the Multi-Vision, and being very intentional about what direction I’m heading, and what direction I want the business to head kind of set up the steps to get there. I mean thats… the goal-setting is a big part of the journey for sure.

It was a treat to look back at those goals and just check them off, one by one. Often just, like, exceeding anticipated growth, and … it was just really cool to see. Yeah.

And so that was … started out when it was just you, right? Yup. Yup. And continuation of the education and the people you were talking about, bringing people in. You know, the Multi-Vision now as we we’ve created it, isn’t just about you and your interests, but bringing in the interests of your key managers. 100%. Thomas, Caleb, Codi, right

As well as providing an environment in the education world, which is The Eddy. Mhmm. So the Multi-Vision is one of The Eddy exercises, their involved within the Multi-Vision, and then we’ll get into some of that other key curriculum, but … How has been bringing those guys into the fold for you?

Oh, it’s incredible. Yeah, yeah, well they get a taste of being a business owner, which is awesome. And they have more employee buy-in, more responsibility, more contributions to what they want it to be. And so, I think the opportunity for that sense of ownership, which I feel is often lacking inside of modern work environments, isn’t present in our business.

They’re leading from their hearts. They’re contributing. We’re creating a system that works in a sustainable way for them, with a ton of support and guidance along the way, so they can feel safe taking risk within our business ecosystem. And, growing within their skillsets. So it’s been really incredible to begin including them on those educational opportunities.

And yeah, like, the Eddy meeting’s done, and then we’re talking about it. There’s transference, and there’s growth … very interesting to watch as a business owner. ‘Cause I mean, first and foremost, I’m here … I’m in a leadership role. And I’m here just to guide the rocketship, and it’s going. And I can maybe tug it one way or the other, but there’s no stopping it at this point.

And so it’s been really cool to see them in the driver seat a little bit more. Uh-huh. And putting it in the direction they want to go. Uh-huh. Yeah.

And also with them being in the driver seat, you know we were talking about this on our walk over, it’s like, you end up hiring somebody to make a delegation, and you get some of that stuff delegated, but real quick the business starts transforming, and we find ourselves kind of baking … as owners, baking ourselves into other roles as it’s needed by the team and everything else. Yep.

So where some stresses get put to the side, other ones tend to pop up. That’s true. That’s true, that’s true. And I think its… I mean, I go back and forth on whether that’s a healthy or an appropriate task. And certainly I’ve lots of energy. I like being part of the team. I don’t know if I could necessarily fully step back. I want to be part of this experience.

And so, if I could take those tasks and responsibilities so other people have more room to develop their specialties and grow where they need to, then that’s a wonderful contribution I can offer.

So thinking about some of the other curriculum, right. You’ve been in The Eddy for three … maybe even going on four years now. Since it started, yeah. You’ve been a part of it since it started. And your team’s been involved into it.

So we talked about the Multi-Vision, you know, we also have the strengths assessments. We’ve got the Q12 that’s coming up, the employee grading, the mentorship. “Mastering Mentorship” which was a new one this last year.

Thinking on some of those other ones, which one of them have been most impactful for you and your organization? Oh, great question. Well, they all … you don’t wanna say they all contribute equally, but they certainly have influence in their own special needs.

Like, I need to know the pulse of my team, so I know where to invest time, energy, and effort to growth. So I need that. And I need that curriculum to put the foundations behind why and when I need to make decisions. And employee grading, I need to be aware of when I can reward people for their hard work, and where I need to support. So I would had to just put a blanket over, they all have equal contribution. But they do all serve their own specific needs within the business. Yeah. Yup.

Well, and timing-wise, we’ve created that calendar. Momentum, okay, not the quote-unquote “outfitter” or adventure tourism, right? Yeah. But your business has so many parallel similarities. Oh, a hundred percent.

The seasonality, the … literally, the same people who you employ seasonally are working up at the mountain and winter sports. Yeah. So culturally it’s very similar, the people as consumers are all the same. They want more value than what they’re paying, and there’s … there’s the tradeoff where consumers are people regardless of where it’s at. So, the tree expert service line is very dif — very indifferent than the broader audience. Yeah.

So I say that, layering that in, when we’re talking about the cadencing, when we’re talking about the layering to it. End of the summer season we have the SWOT analysis, the historical review, then we go into Multi-Vision, we go into Strengths Assessments. We get into delegation, Mastering Mentorship, and everything layers on top of each other.

Then by the time we get into the season, which you’re in right now, we’re going to have our Q12 form, we’re going to have Employee Grading. And it’s more hands-off work for you guys, but it drives incredible information from the employee base, that we can then glean from when we’re setting up the next year’s plans, the next year’s staffing, the next year’s delegation efforts, based on the data we accumulate now.

So I appreciate hearing it all carries weight, because it’s all intentionally structured and it layers on top of each other. And it’s been cool to see that curriculum evolve. And it always is.

Each year, I can see how your team has been growing from those educational resources as well and, seeing the Eddy evolve year after year make … I’m just aware that it’s not just the repetitive information. There’s an evolution of your curriculum. And it’s been really fun to see that as well. And it by no means feels repetitive. I mean, there’s growth in that resource.

And you’re learning something every year. Every time I sit in there I’m learning something. And if it’s not 100% new, it’s a real good reminder that I probably should focus on exactly that. Yeah.

And so … It’s part of that hundred-year-business you’re talking about, right? Yeah, yeah. You know, in a hundred years, you’re not going to find anything new under the sun, it’s just leaning into what works well and stepping away from what doesn’t. And it’s … what’s cool about the Eddy is it’s about the people, right? Training your managers and training you to be solid leaders and managers within the organization.

Putting business structure to a non-business industry, right? But in a way that’s simple, interpretive, applicable, easy to apply, but not over-the-top. No, not at all.

There’s like … you do such a good job of providing the structure of a heavier concept or a bigger concepts, and then really getting down and how we can approach that easily. And getting into it, and that’s the “Crawl, Walk, Run” and we have our baby goals and our medium goals and our lofty goals.

I think it needs to be “Crawl, Walk, Run, Sprint.” Let’s get a fourth one in there. But, yeah, it’s been really cool to just … there’s always … every time I have employees in on that, I can see just bells turning, gears turning, and it’s been really cool

Well, and like you said, they even come to you afterwards, and you guys continue the conversation, right? Mhmm.

You have an incredible culture. Yeah. Right? We work very hard on that. You work– That’s the most important part of my business

Absolutely. And when we were going through those years, one of those years that we jumped between, where it was like 13 and 14 employees … there was 18 employees in the year in-between. That was a tough year. That was a hard year. I probably over-hired. I didn’t have the right people in the right spot, so we had to compensate by putting two people in that spot. And that was a big learning year.

And so that was one of those first years that you came into The Eddy. Mhmm. So then we started looking at … well, we sent out the customer surveys, we got insight into where the customer base, or, not the customer but where the employee base was struggling in effectively. We got visibility into where you as an organization were struggling to support them. And then we did the Employee Grading right after, and we saw those qualities and traits that were really, as we call it in The Eddy, the “Bickering Biddies” that were kind of pulling things down. Yeah.

So we did some pruning of the herd, we leaned into some of those graded better employees. We leaned into those responses we got out of our Q12 survey. And almost within the year, from my perspective, felt like the culture shifted to be a tighter unit and more geared toward what you were trying to accomplish rather than them basically pulling you along.

Yep, that’s a hundred percent it. That was a big transition year. And a necessary step of being a business owner. If we’re developing a culture, and there’s part of it that’s not nurturing, and it’s not … thriving, then it’s important to look at why that’s happening. And if it’s simply a matter of refocusing energy into the part of the culture that needs that nurturing and growth, and really beginning to bloom that, then that’s the most important part I can offer as a business owner. Hundred percent.

And that’s where … I mean, now, this is the best culture I’ve ever had in the business. It’s very humbling to come into it and be, like, “Do you guys even need me anymore?” I’m happy to contribute. I was cleaning the mirrors on the truck this morning, and the whole thing is running without me. Like, “I guess I’ll go clean the mirrors on the truck.” And then they’re like, wow, sometimes I get in here and I just don’t know why the mirrors are so clean. So I got a good shoutout, “This is why the mirrors are clean!” Okay, cool.

I jumped into the strategy meeting you and Robert had a couple weeks ago. And you were telling me how you guys started your day – how did the day turn out? You started playing a game?

Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, I’m trying to integrate just in my personal life, trying to just blur the work-play. And why does there have to be such a black/white work-play environment. And so my personal work and life it’s just getting that play going a little bit more, and being a little more intentional about playing. And so finding grey areas – we call it “plerking” which is “play” and “work” combined, and we try to “plerk” as much as possible.

But I started off the morning with a heavy conversation, like, “this isn’t gonna be easy.” And “We’re gonna have to keep it within the space here,” people are gonna – might have to take risks. It’s gonna be challenging. And everyone thought it’s about to be a really heavy conversation, and I was just like, “Tag! You’re it!” And at 7:00 in the morning had the whole team jumping over trucks, climbing on top of – just, like, freeze tag all over the place. And it was a real treat.

Just want to bring it back – like, work doesn’t have to be so heavy. I mean, I get there’s days that there are … but I think it’s very intentional to keep play in the work environment. So, yeah, focusing on that a little bit more.

I definitely need to glean and learn from you in that case. It’s been … I’ve been heavy on the team from our end. I just get into those patterns and those zones. You know that from a business owner, there’s some extra stresses, and covering that payroll, and seeing from afar. It’s like the weight is there, but separating the weight from them, too.

I have a bang-up team. They’re awesome and incredible as well. Every one of them, Corey, Kayla, Robert. Hundred percent. I vouch … I vouch for that.

And … you know, learning from our experience, it’s like, Moses, lean into your team more. Zeb, lean into your team more. Yeah, yeah. And now I have Thomas and Caleb, just being like, sometimes they come into work stressed out. There’s always those days. And Thomas is very intentional about, like, hey, this doesn’t need to go into the culture. This doesn’t need … we can talk about this on the administrative side, but I’ve been really focused on more … keeping that a little closer to me. They don’t need to know this job was a total bomb, and this client’s a headache. Just keep it fun and exciting and low-stress for them.

Because like with any industry there’s burnout. Tree care is a hard job and there’s a lot of inherent risk, and we’re industrial athletes and we’re pushed to our limits often. Making sure that it’s as light as possible so they can leave work at work, and fully feel recharged when they get back from the weekend is super important for me. Yeah.

I’m gonna pause – I’m gonna pause this real quick and we’ll get back into it. All right. Some mechanical changes on the computer. The complexities of an outdoor environment. Hopefully we can align it up a little bit.

Anything you want to just kind of continue rolling with? Um, yeah. Let’s see, here. The culture is the most important part of the business … but I mean what’s been really interesting as a business owner, where the culture used to be entirely connected to me, I’ve learned to relinquish that little bit of ego and allow the culture to take it’s own form. And what I’ve found is that if you can be more vibrant without me leading it … and it can be … people’s contributions can have more influence without me kind of being the old tree in the center of the forest, stepping out of the way, and just seeing more and more growth on their end. Fun to think about.

So what is it, right now, like if you were to pinpoint it on something, what do you think is the core of why your culture is where it’s at right now?

That’s a great question. We’ve put a lot of energy into it. I’ve created an environment where people can feel safe with who they are as individuals. They can come in tired, and maybe needing a little bit of support for our team, but I think I’ve created and have been working this entire time to create an environment where people can take safe risk, and have a safety net there if something doesn’t go as planned. I think that’s largely it. When people can feel safe at work, they can be themselves, and then there’s less, masking and projecting out into the world of maybe not who they really are, which takes a lot of energy and seems inauthentic, it isn’t sustainable. So then there’s burnout. But yeah, I would probably say that. And then having strong leaders. I mean, when were’ working with our team and I’m leading my team, I’m teaching them how to take on those contributions and roles and responsibilities of leadership, and so they … they see their influence, which is a big part of it as well.

Last year there was a little bit of … a bind that we uncovered during our strategy calls, and kind of looking at finances you were behind where we wanted to be income-wise. Sales were always strong, but it was just like the bank account wasn’t growing the way you wanted it to, the net income wasn’t where we had it, and you know there was a little bit of a call-out that we had with Thomas and with Caleb. And it ended up being because the staff was sitting on the clock for too long.

And it was within the flexibility and fun space you had, there just wasn’t the accountability to keeping, you know … I don’t want to say margins tight. But the key number we looked on was Gross Profit, right? Your revenue less the cost of sales, the time on the job, the structuring of the jobs, the number of staff on the jobs. And it was a prospectively challenging conversation to have with everybody. How did that go?

It went really well. Mainly, I wasn’t leading that conversation. So, it went really well. I mean … and, like, staff has changed over a little bit since then. I think … our team that we have now sees the goal, the dream, the vision. I support their goals, dreams, and visions as well. And so I think that’s changed a ton. We were at a point where we were developing equipment resources, and so we were trying to maximize equipment that may not have been best for the job. I was caught in the startup mindset of overstaffing, so a lot of it was self-inflicted pain. I mean, I’ll take responsibility for that, a hundred percent.

I was … the culture just wasn’t mature for where it needed to be, to be a high-functioning, high-performance team. And so … I mean, it’s easy to just kind of point to, oh, they’re taking time, too long of a lunch, or whatever it may be. But it’s really … it’s an internal thing. I may not be offering the support where it’s needed, so these are the situations of how it plays out. I wouldn’t put that necessarily on the team. Although, yeah, sure, there’s always a little bit of … come on, come on. Pushing them down the trail a little bit.

I remember that conversation, too, with Caleb and Thomas, and Codi being in the room also. It was, like, they wanted the best interests, because they wanted to get to those income goals as well. But to think about that … how do we hybrid the impacts and the benefits of profitability? From debt paydowns and asset acquisitions, all the stuff in the Multi-Vision, and then the reality being like, we’ve got to make some corrective changes. And then there was a little bit of a … there was never really a conflict in those rooms. But it was just, oh, getting through the struggles of, how are we gonna tackle this issue?

One, recognizing that it’s our lead that is causing this issue. Or maybe even absence, or whatever else, it was just maybe lack of awareness. It wasn’t like anybody was causing the problem, but it was just leaning into something that … was left unaddressed. It was kind of the elephant in the room.

That’s what we were calling it! We called it the elephant in the room. It was the elephant in the room. We were struggling with these other issues, and the elephant in the room was that the margin on the gross profit wasn’t tight enough … anyways, I just went through all of that.Yeah, yeah. But then it was, ok, we have to fix this problem. And the awkwardness of fixing this problem. Yeah.

I mean, it’s opportunities for growth. With any reflection, we determined there needed to be a change here, and we looked at it intentionally, and we grew to satisfy that goal or that change that was needed. And then, then it happens. I think a lot of it, too, is as I place more responsibility onto those who may not have had those in their past, they need their space to learn. And so, as much as I like to overlay, I just call it “punching widgets” in this industry. We’re not punching widgets, these are complex challenges that we need to develop a specific set of skills. That’s where The Eddy backs that up.

I’ve got my leaders to learn about those subtleties. And now they can support the production team with those subtleties. We can educate the administrative teams so they can educate our clients with those subtleties. And that goes a long ways. I mean, there’s always gonna be an ebb and flow of efficiency and profitability and success. I think it’s important to offer that space that people can grow and learn in a pace that suits them. Sometimes you gotta infuse a bunch of knowledge, just get them into the Eddy, but you have to allow that space. And I attribute it largely to the learning style they need, whether that’s hands-on, or in-classroom work, or just the support needed.

As you’re describing that, it’s reminding me, just as little tiny tweaks. A few of the little tiny tweaks we make throughout the year, right? Yeah.

In the strategy meetings and in the financial side of working with each other, we’ve got The Eddy, but then we’ve got the one-on-one application for your business. We get together, look at where numbers are at, look at progress on the goals we’re talking about. Brainstorming … a … next-level initiatives. Yeah. Whether that be a marketing-focused one that we do with Codi, the email marketing kind of things, or recognizing that there was a break within the sales flow. That there was leads dropping off in sales conversations. And so, putting within the process an immediate call-back – not just an immediate call-back, but then a follow-up within two days later.

We recognized that there was a break, if a client didn’t hear back from us within a four-day time period, the close rate dropped significantly. So there were little tiny tweaks in that process … because of those strategy meetings. Because of that continued connection. Because of keeping the eye on the prize that then Codi was incredible with. And just applying and baking it into the system right away, too.

Yeah. Yep, it’s been really cool to see that. And even just this week Codi set up a meeting with our administrative team. And so Brittany and Aliyah and Thomas and Caleb and I were there. And it was … I interjected just a couple key, hey, maybe we should look at it this way, it was entirely running without me. I was there at the table, but it was Codi’s initiative, and Thomas and Caleb, and Aliyah and Brittany, they’re all sorting out the little details, and it was really, really cool to see that. And be part of that still. I’m glad I’m invited to those meetings. But it was really cool to see it take that next evolution.

And them talking about their sales schedules, and what our consultants need, and how the office team can support them, and how I can support both of those teams. And just really working on that synergy mindset. Really, sweet.

And they’re the ones innovating and coming up with initiatives. Oh, way better than… yeah, yeah, way better than what I could offer. Yeah.

Cool. Yeah, so it’s super sweet. Yeah, it’s a real treat to be a part of that.

Alright. So I want to shift from talking culture and the people, and your team dynamics. And I want to focus a bit on the business things that have evolved. Right?

One of the most pivotal initiatives that I’d say you and I went through, especially in that third year, right? Kind of one of those things right before we got to that $800,000 mark. And we mentioned this a little bit at the beginning, but was … the customer. So, we did our typical customer analysis that I work clients through. Looked at your customer base, 80/20-ed them, looked for the 20% of your audience that produced 80% of the benefit, revenue in your case. We isolated different neighborhoods, we isolated client profiles. Orchards was one of them, tree care, tree restoration, throughout neighborhoods that were basically just not producing well for you.

Hard conversations, and saying, “Moses, you gotta step away from this client base and get after these other ones.” Right? Let’s talk about that journey a little bit. Yeah. That was a good journey to go on.

Yeah, I mean, as a business owner – yeah, what’s that? And pricing! And pricing, as an owner, big journey to go on. Um, yeah. I had a lot of bad habits, starting … I was outgrowing the habits I needed to form when starting the business. And so, those probably would have been sustainable if it was just me and my dog Ruthie in the front seat of the truck, and I could pull that off. It may have sustained me in that limited growth journey.

Yeah. I found very quickly that connecting with people who really valued our service, filled our hearts more, we could contribute more to their landscape and provide and demonstrate our best services. And so when we went through that exercise of tightening the belt a little bit in our service area, one, we saw direct relationship with amount of time spent on the clock, the amount of risk and time spent on the road environment which is totally crazy these days, and the amount of wear and tear on the truck, the fuel and all that. My time spent driving back and forth to all these jobs to look at them, to maybe get them or not, because they weren’t necessarily the right fits for us, but I’m gonna look at anybody’s work who calls us …

And so tightening that belt. Determining the very specific neighborhoods and clients we want to go after. Ultimately, finding the people who trust us. There’s a lot of distrust in the business world. And with good reason, there’s a lot of dishonest businesses out there. To find people that trust us, that we can build a relationship with, was a big step in the right direction. Not to say those people didn’t exist in the periphery of our service area. Now we can seek them, and they’re just a little bit closer to home. Which is nice, if we forget at the shop, we can just run back. Less exposure and time on the road infrastructure.

Yeah. That was a big step. Moving away from the startup mindset … I was historically caught in pricing that felt really good as a sole operator, and single employee of the business, found very quickly that even the addition of Workman’s Comp and having … paying sustainable living wages, which has always been a very important goal of mine. I want to make sure people can thrive. If the sea rises, all ship rise with it. I’m very intentional about that.

And have evolved that quite a bit. I’m sure we’ll touch on that at some point. Yeah. Pushing pricing that didn’t nurture the business’s growth and our trajectory to the side as well. Largely that’s getting Thomas and Caleb in as consultants.

And they’re doing a really good job because they’re not as emotionally invested in that. They can look at the work strategically, and from a formulatative mindset. And we can price our work fairly and accurately for the expectations we’re looking to serve.

And so, just to put numbers in context, right? Sole operator starting at the beginning of this. And I think this is true for a lot of people who don’t put any intentional work behind pricing. Looking at what competitive rates are, you know. Average job, I remember seeing $150 tickets. Ay ay ay. Right?

So, $150 tickets. It was, like, you know, trying to ask for $500, you were like, “People aren’t gonna take this. There’s no way.” And then I was like, Moses, we’re gonna get you up to $1,500 a job. And you were just, like, [gasps]. The gasp that happened with $1,500 was like, “I’m gonna be rejected. I’m gonna be turned down. I’m not gonna have enough business.” Yeah, yeah

However, when we started isolating the right target audiences, we started narrowing down on the neighborhoods, we started narrowing down on the service offers … the communication became easier, the referrals that came in was easier. You could put intentional nurture on key areas, have a bang-up job at $1,500 and, you know, tell that story. Then we crossed the $3,500 a job threshold. Yup!

I think that was around the time period when we were like, $2500, $3500 a job, components doing very similar work to what you were doing at $150 a job. Right?

And again, competitively, there’s nobody else charging that. You’re head and shoulders above everybody else. 100%.

But you’re so much more above that people perceptually saw you, and were like, there’s something different about this. And, people sought that. You’ve lost customers along the way, but for good reason. You intentionally dropped a handful. And even just, I think last strategy call, you got … you walked into an engagement and got rid of your biggest-paying client ever, and it felt incredible. It’s true!

I was so happy. I’m so happy I have the confidence and stability in my business that I can let relationships go that no longer serve us. Yeah.

And that didn’t come without a great deal of nurturing and attempts to just … that wasn’t an easy decision. That was the first time that’s ever happened. And it was with not … like, we had consensus. And it was the best move and decision for everyone involved. And we talked about it as an entire team, even down to the frontline workers, talked about whether this is the appropriate decision to make.

And we offered opportunities for resolution. We did all the nurturing, we offered perspective, everything I possible could do, and then saw that this is an energy deficit and although there’s the temptation of income, which is certainly tempting as a business owner, to not just pursue income for the sake of income, we determined that it was an energy drain for us as a business. And that’s not what we want. We want to be high energy. Yep.

And so, yeah, now work is being priced very well. And I think speaks fairly – it’s not overpriced, it speaks fairly to the level of expertise and the quality of the experience we bring. People are buying the experience of tree work.

I remember when I was chatting about it with you, Moses, they’re not buying just the work done on the trees, but the professionalism from answering the phone calls from the beginning, getting to talk with the gals in the office, loving that. Codi, not even being an arborist, has learned so much about arborists and everybody else, that they’re answering phone calls … they’re answering questions on the phone calls, which is establishing tremendous amounts of trust. Your guys’ vehicles, you know, uniformed, really great sharp uniforms, incredible equipment, clean, you show up professional, you leave the job timely, cleaned up, and everything is just polished from start to finish. And that customer perspective on the experience is where you’re getting multiples on the dollar. Yeah.

And now, I can’t remember what the average ticket price was that we were going for, but we’re talking about $4,500 – you have a handful of contracts well above that …

Oh, I mean, we had a … $18,000 day a week or two ago. Yeah, I mean …

Could you believe, when you first started this, that you’d have an $18,000 day?

I wouldn’t have believed it in the moment, but I knew we were working towards that. You know, and it’s the team. Again, I am maybe sitting in the driver’s seat a little bit. But I see it as we have 12 driver’s seats, and everyone’s getting to drive their own little part of the ship. And it’s the team that insures that. And everyone’s contribution – it’s so far beyond me. Its … it’s them. Coming back to that: I can tug the ship one way or another, but they’re driving.

I remember … one more final thing just on pricing and the customers. I remember when Thomas and Caleb were starting to get into the sales arborist role. And we were … I was doing coaching with them on sales training, and the presentation of the sale and the flow of the sale.

And there was a downturn that was happening, last year when the tariff scare happened. And they wanted to discount. They didn’t … there was concern, oh there’s pressures in housing, people are stepping back. And it was, like, this is the time to increase price points and lean more into your guys’ systems.

They doubted it, obviously sales ended up doing better than what was expected, ’cause that’s what you guys continue to do. But tell me their growth going through that challenge, and recognizing that if they sacrifice on that price point, they’re sacrificing compensation, effectively.

Yeah. Yep. And it’s tricky. So, again, in an unstable world, people will find opportunities to connect with stability. So we want to be a stable business. We want to flourish, to be stable. Want our team to be stable. We want just a good foundation for people to connect with.

And I think largely … and we talked about it even this week, we’re talking about, should we adjust pricing? No, we’re going to remain stable and consistent in our pricing. Because what we have to offer hasn’t changed. Like, if anything, it’s even better than the way we’re pricing our work.

And so, the quality of our pruning and removal, the equipment we can contribute, the education, the team. Everyone that’s part of the business ecosystem … it hasn’t changed. We’re not in a different place because there’s economic uncertainty. And so we’re gonna remain stable in that.

And now that we’re six years into the business, we’re developing back balances and cash flow in a predictable and sustainable manner, we can be confident in that approach. Where, historically, as a new business owner I’d just turn that pricing way down. I’d just contribute free tree work essentially, or break even, and that would have been necessary. But now, we’re … there’s no separation from that.

I’m reading through a book right now. It was one of the Eddy members, Kevin, suggested I read it talking about sales. And it’s really cool, cause I haven’t read this book before, but he’s echoing a lot of the same things that I’ve said over the years. Sweet. With our audience.

It’s kind of affirming on that. But he calls out, when you end up reducing your price, the customer doesn’t benefit, and the business doesn’t benefit. Right? Because those higher price points is what drives profitability, which is what drives your ability to grow and develop and invest in stronger team members. Profit is what drives the investment, and a positive culture.

You start discounting, one, you’re removing the psychological investment from the consumer. A smaller price point, they’re less invested, they’re not gonna take it as seriously, they’re not gonna follow through. They’re not gonna think as highly of it, they’re not gonna anticipate it.

And you end up struggling, because now you’re making sacrifices, cuts, and safety, and all those other kinds of things. So the customer doesn’t benefit – yeah, their bank account might be a little better. But they’re not going to take it as seriously as, you know, $150 a job versus a $1,500 job. A $1,500 job versus a $15,000 job. You get them to pay that $15,000 up front, they’re gonna take it more seriously.

And you drive the funding to continue to grow and develop your team, pay down debts, purchase new assets. You know, pay yourselves as owners! We’re gonna get into that one, too. [Laughs]

Yep. Okay. So, anyway, just kind of a side tangent. Yeah, yeah. 100%.

It’s challenging. In a discounted economy, it’s challenging not to fall into those grocery-store-style of discounts. Yeah. But we’re intentional about that. And if we do need to adjust pricing, we want to match people’s budgets. I mean, yeah I’m running a business, but I also like tree work and we want people’s trees to be happy. We want people to invest in their landscapes, and so if we need to look at pricing, then we’re gonna make adjustments and reprioritize and focus on the immediate needs. And then we can always circle back to that second treatment plan. I’m very strategic about that.

So on that treatment plan, right? And I think one of those things that is stimulating why the margins are gonna be so strong this year, is innovation. Adoption of new efforts, right?

Earlier we talked about ntot going to key locations. We talked about employee management on jobs. Gas time. All that kind of things. But there’s been these tree care treatments – now, they’re not sexy, they’re not glorious, they’re not fun. However, it continues the relationship with clients. You do all this incredible work, you get opportunity to show up and be present with them, nurture the relationship.

Super high margins, because you show up for just a couple of hours and then get some pretty good change out of it. Right?

So, over time, getting rid of the stuff that hasn’t served you, and leaning more into the stuff that’s serving the customer better and serving your business better.

Yep, that’s exactly it. And its … and that’s just an important step as we grow our business. In the tree work world, if they only have a chainsaw, then the only thing they’re gonna do is cut the tree with the chainsaw. We look to provide the whole experience, and thinking about to the rafting population – every outfitter has a boat. But what’s gonna separate you from that experience?

I think there’s so much of that. Of, how can we provide excitement, and just joy, with the services that can offer? How can we keep the tree healthy? How can we do whatever we can to keep very important trees from being removed in the landscape, stand out above and beyond with our approach, it’s been really important this year.

And it’s been a treat for me. I get to go back out on the job sites and connect with clients who’ve now become Thomas and Caleb’s clients. And I get to see them and connect, and see awesome tree work, and, yeah. It’s pretty fun.

So, side tangent. Yeah. One of the outfitters in The Eddy, Brian, owns Wilderness Aware. Yeah! Right. Is that just on the other side of the bridge on the Arkansas? Yes, it is.

Yeah, Wilderness Aware Rafting. You got a little history there, huh? I do! So, yeah. I mean, I am a tree worker. But my entire educational background is in outdoor education. So, I was a guide for many years, climbing and caving and rafting guide on the Nantahala, and Pisgah National Forest, and lived in Leadville and did the Knowles, and Outward Bound thing.

But yeah, so I did a swiftwater rescue course. And I still remember to this day, it was so cold. And we’re in 3ml wetsuits, and they’re handing out wool sweaters. And we still had to jump in. It was just the freshest snow melt that Arkansas River offers, probably year round. And we were swimming drills across the river underneath the bridge in Johnson Village, and we were all shivering and trying to sit in the classroom.

And we were given these wool sweaters, that were soaking wet after we went swimming in them. But, yeah. And I developed some … and in that class, I developed an awareness in mechanical rigging, for boat flipping and extraction, from strainers, and I’d say that was a contributor in my evolution into coming towards the more rope-heavy tree work. So I’d say there is a little bit of a root back there.

Oh, the decisions we make and the routes we take. Yeah. Right? It’s funny how they layer on each other.

It’s like, snow melt, and it was snowing, and then here’s this box of wet sweaters. Cool.

Fun. Yeah.

So, another shift in gears, one more time. That’s kind of where we’ve evolved from. We’ve … hit some good history, done a lot of different topics. What is … what’s the immediate for Moses and for Momentum? Great question. Immediacy …

That’s kind of … often, for me, an often-overlooked area. It tends to be past and future. Immediacy is working to continue the support and growth of those who support me. And so that’s an immediacy for me, and something evolved in our current experience.

Finding ways, and being told ways I need to step back from the administrative team. And focusing more on what I enjoy doing. I mean, this week I was climbing a big, beautiful broad-leaf cottonwood, kind of like the one above us here, and it was a real treat. I got to be out there with the crew, we had a six-person team with our new wood chipper and our fancy little track spider weft, we had … I was climbing one side of the tree, we had the lift in another, and another tree climber working, and the most incredible ground team I’ve ever watched scurrying around trying to keep up with everything happening above. And so now, my goal is to just insert myself into what brings me joy in the business.

And sometimes that’s administrative work. I was building proposals today – and I still like that too. And I was doing plant health care, and there are sometimes where it feels a little bit monotonous, or not as exciting as the tree work, or the production tree work world, but I find enjoyment in that as well. Connecting our administrative team this week over dinner was a real treat as well.

So basically focusing on inserting myself into the places that bring me joy. Supporting the growth of my team as well, and knowing that, sometimes as a business owner I can feel separated from the front line experience, but also offering my contribution and support and check in, and continue to build relationships with the front side, the forward-facing side of the business. So, yeah.

Last summer, I think it was last summer or maybe two summers ago, we had a big push and initiative for that delegation. Yeah.

So that you could take a honeymoon with your wife. Yup. You had been married for years … It’s true. And you wanted to go on a summer vacation, ’cause she’s a teacher. Yup.

And summer is your peak season, so that was a big step. It was a very big step. And you did. Yep. I did.

Yep, and we planned it for a long time. And I just did everything I could to support them. And we did, even, I remember, at your suggestion, we did a little test flight. Where I still in town. I mean, I was going to Japan, so I would have been on the other side of the world, fifteen hours in the future and so there’s no phone calls or anything I can help with.

And so we even did a little test flight, like, “Okay, this is how you guys do everything. Here’s all the keys, here’s how you make payments, just keep it going!” And did a little test flight, I stepped – I was still in town. And kind of stepped back from the business, I was kinda like, waiting for everyone to leave and I’d come in and do my little thing.

And then, what ended up happening is we had the record month of the entire business’s lifespan in the month I was gone. Because you stepped away. [Laughs]

Yep, and we still laugh about that. And they still are like, “Hey, maybe you should take a month off.” I dunno, it’s hard to do. They don’t want you to, though.

But they saw that, and I was very proud of them and the team, and couldn’t have done that without them. When I was there, certainly, a thought or two of, “Hope everything’s going all right,” came into my mind, but noone reached out the entire time. I got back, and everything was perfectly- a couple little embers, poking around in the forest that needed some attention, but by no means anything outside of what would have normally happened within the business. And so, it was just a clear demonstration for me, and it’s funny, I was shown that. I saw that. Was shown that. And still as a business owner feel like I need to be a little bit more interjection, like, a little bit more present. But maybe that’s work I need to do. Maybe that’s a part of me I need to let go. Yeah.

Hand the keys, and hand the system to them.

Let’s work on that together. Let’s work on that, okay, cool. ‘Cause, like, and it’s hard. I mean, I do enjoy being part of the team, and like, I do love tree work. And I do like big trucks and chainsaws, and all that fun stuff. But I mean, my growth, I need to evolve and focus on other portions of my life, that as a business owner I haven’t been able to give as much attention to as I know it deserves.

So we talked a little bit about the financial, and the owner comp, right. Yeah. And so it has been growing, you’ve been doing a lot of reinvestment into the business. A lot of asset purchases and stuff. So much to the point, where you’re getting attention – like, you’re drawing attention from private equity, and from lucrative buyers that want to come in and purchase you.

And you’ve been presented some, some good things. Pretty stellar deals, yeah.

Where do you stand currently when it comes to the prospect of either selling, or … you worked so hard at this point. Yeah.

That’s a great question. One that’ll keep a fella up at night, sometimes, just thinking about it. I mean, it’s … I don’t want to detract from all the hard work and attention I’ve put into this. And I want it to be mine. And I need it to be mine. I love that it’s an ecosystem of business that is my vision.

And … where everyone can have influence and contributions, and we can keep it more organic in form and not be top-down managed. I’m not a top-down manager. I mean, I’m right there. I’ll be out on the job sites, and maybe I’ll be the person that moves the little woods around. I don’t want to be a … manage top-down. I don’t want to be a top-down manager. I really work toward equality within the business ecosystem.

And so, yeah. It’s interesting perspective to think about. I have a really good thing going. A hundred percent. And it doesn’t mean that there are days that are hard … we all as business owners, we all know those days, like, “Here’s the keys, I’m done with this.” This was fun and shiny, and now it’s just a dirty old toy, and maybe I need to look for a new toy, or a new something to focus on in life.

And so … ultimately in that scenario what I’m presented with is, I have the power to make that decision. It’s not out of desperation. It’s not like I’m in over my head, here just take this, I can’t do this any more. I have this system developed, I have the people we want to work for as part of our business. I’m working with people I like to work with as part of our business, and feel very confident in that, and so … yeah. And so that’s kind of where I’m at.

And it’s exciting to have prospective interest. One thing I always come back to is, they’re interested in the business as an entity, not in what we do. And in my experience, I worked very hard to create something very specific to what we do. We put in tree swings. We make bird habitat. We leave wildlife spars. We’re very creative in our approach, we’re like artists. And we have a beautiful canvas to work on, people who let us just have the paintbrush to do what we think is best.

And don’t want to let that go. So, yeah. These days.

It’s props to you guys, and I’ve been in conversation with Thomas and Codi – I haven’t been able to see Caleb that much because he’s been out all winter long – but in those recent conversations with those guys, they fully support you in whatever the decision is that you make. There’s also that scare and concern that corporate’s gonna come in and change things. Yep, yep.

In this last strategy meeting that I sat in, and we were able to connect you, Robert, and myself. We laid out some of those numbers, because a big driver to this is the financial unknowns as a business owner. It could always turn, we could be throwing money into it, there could be years where we sacrifice and lose to it.

But, with the offer that they provide you. And so, for example, we were talking about it being a million bucks. You basically get a million bucks in your pocket and then from here on out, you’ll be compensated on W-2, on insurance, and all of this. Yep.

You’re about to net about a million this year. Yeah. Right? Now, not all of it will go straight to your pocket. However, keeping money simple … so they pay you a million now. You still get to take a salary, but you don’t get the freedom, you don’t get the creativity, that’s anticipated. Yeah.

The team doesn’t necessarily like it – again, they’ll support you in whatever. But this year, you net that million. Yeah.

Next year, you net that million. Yeah.

So, you keep your business just for two years, you’ve already doubled the money they’re gonna pay you. Yeah, a hundred percent.

You keep it for three years, you’ve tripled it, and with your growth plan, you’re gonna have a higher payout. So the financial side … it doesn’t make sense. Yeah.

And we kind of came to that conclusion. Yeah. A hundred percent.

And what puts confidence behind that direction is having the support I need from you guys, and from the team, to get there. I mean, if I didn’t have a team, I didn’t have you guys, sure, take it! “Here you go, buddy.” I’d cash out.

Because … yeah. As a business owner, it can be very challenging day in and day out, to sustain it. And, so … the opportunity to have decision in an opportunity like this comes from the support network that I’ve been very intentional about creating.

And that I feel supported by. It’s one thing to create a support network, maybe of advisers, who don’t always have it in their best- or, in my best interests as a business owner. But I feel like everyone, you guys, my co- my administrative team-, and my employees, I don’t want to forget. The frontline employees are a big part of that, too.

I have the confidence and trust in everyone involved in my support network to continue to take the risk of being a business owner. And that’s, that’s the strength behind it.

If that was all gone, yeah, of course, in a second. This is my chance. Seeya! Car’s broken – you can have it!

I think we did that … it’s almost like a T-table. We didn’t actually draw it out, but it’s like, okay. We talked, what’s the pro’s and the cons of selling? And it’s like, wow, there’s a heck of a lot more pro’s in keeping this thing, than there are cons.

And there’s … once you start laying it out, and think of the bigger perspective, there’s a lot more cons of selling now than the pro’s associated with it.

And I still hope that you’re gonna pursue this journey of continuing to own it. So kind of, on that topic, though, too – what we have in store right now, a big concern that you have is the absence of the retirement. You’re turning forty this year.

One of the things I’ve been telling to you is, Moses, in our strategy sessions. Moses, let’s stop making decisions like we’re 30, and start making 40-year-old decision. That was a big breakthrough, that was a big breakthrough.

You’ll see, it’s written on the whiteboard in our shop: 30 or 40?

Is it really? Yeah.

Is this a 30-year-old decision, or a 40-year-old decision? Yep, yep.

And it’s funny, Thomas and Caleb call me out on that all the time. They’re like, “You’re 40 now, you need to be making 40-year-old decisions!” It was just last year, that I was 30. But we’re still making 40-year-old decisions there. It’s hard not to make impulsive decisions as a business owner.

Often we’re presented with challenges that feeling immediate. And without strategy, it’s almost like there’s a decision needs to be made right then and there. When we overlay the strategy on the business ownership, and growth, then we can start making those more intentional plans.

To take that immediacy out of it. Yeah, remove the emotion from it. Gotta remove the emotions. Still can have your heart in it. Yes.

But don’t want it to be forward-led by emo- and especially impulsive emotions. Well, heart and gut.

I think the heart and the gut are incredible. And everybody has … you know, some people are more heady, some people are more gut-focused. But leading with the heart, attracts the employee base that resonates with it. Yeah.

Yeah, I’ve been leading more head-y recently with my employee base, and we’re getting … I got the email from Corey saying we got out Q12 in. And I’m excited to look at it, but I’m also just nervous at the same time. ‘Cause it’s that reflection! You have to have both of it.

Yeah, I mean there has to be that balance. Yeah. ‘Cause the heart without that forward-facing mindset … oh, just gonna follow the, follow the excitement in there.

But to your peace of mind, too, this now next phase is operationally, the business. You’ve already talked about this, too. The business is humming operationally, right? You have the right people in, you’ve got diversity. Even if some lucrative people end up stepping out for whatever reason, you’ve got an incredible base there, right?

It’s a humming machine. Even to the point where they’re telling you not to show up, you still do. But if your interests is being able to go out and start another business like we talked about, like selling ice cream downtown, you can run both! You don’t have to have one or the other, right?

So within, when it comes to this particular business, leaning into that financial side of things, leaning into providing additional benefits to the employees, some of those more advanced efforts we’re going to start wrapping our minds around is the retirement planning. Well, we started that this year.

We have a 5% match 401k, which is a big step for me as a business owner.

Exactly. So, you have the 401k internally there. I’ve connected you up with some financial planners, so getting a little more intentional about the makeup there. We want to start distributing into that broader employee base. And one of the incentives, or one of the pro’s that came with the sellout, was retirement and health benefits. Bigger retirement and bigger health benefits for the employee base. However, if we do that, then you remove the opportunity for Caleb and Thomas to buy in. Yeah.

So, one of the things we’ve talked about to, is literally starting to sell shares within the organization to give them truly ownership. Hundred percent.

They’re psychological owners already, they’re bought into you, but giving them mechanical. Or doing an ESOP plan. So, to be determined on what we do, that’s what we’re gonna wrap our minds around in the immediate future.

But it’s … it’s taking the pressure off of this, “You have to sell now” component. Yeah. Yeah 100% percent.

And it’s always been my dream as a business owner to provide an experience of employee ownership. In the modern-day workforce, there isn’t a whole lot an employee has going for them other than their paycheck and maybe some benefits that come along with it. They’re the ones who make the business happen.

So thinking back to my time, my entire time up to the point I owned my business, as an employee, I always felt that there wasn’t this next step invested in me as an employee. I want to provide that as an owner.

And it’s totally synonymous with the culture you’ve provided, the core that we’ve described from the beginning. Yep. You care deeply for your employee base, for the community, for the environment. So it’s just continuing with that. Mhmm.

Yep, and it’s going to be really exciting to watch that come to fruition this year. And that’s where I need your help, to navigate that. I have no idea. But we’re setting that as our goal.

Wash, rinse, repeat, Moses. This has been the theme from the beginning. Yeah.

And I … I want to commend you for that, too. And recognizing that at the beginning. And also trusting in me, trusting in my team. It’s a big thing. We are talking heaving decisions, we’re making big moves with your organization. I know my price tag … I was thinking about it on the drive up here.

From my perspective, my biggest purchase has been my house. Right? Second-, third-, and fourth-biggest purchases have been my employees, you know? Yeah, yeah.

And it’s like, I was thinking, from a business owner’s perspective, to think about that … it’s like, wow. To put as much care as we do into our home as an investment, our biggest other purchases are our employee base.

And the bake in the middle for clients that Zebulon works with, the house is the first biggest purchase, Zebulon’s the second. Yeah. We have that due care for you guys, and then it’s the employees. When you think about the hundreds of thousands a year you spend on employees. So again, giving it back to them as well. Yeah, yeah.

Well, I mean there’s two options, right? It’s either you’re investing your time and energy, or you’re spending your time and energy, and I’ve always been a proponent of an investment. You know? One day soon that could … all those investments could pay off and we could only spend our time and energy, but investing in your business, in your growth, and watching you move from a sole operator-owner now into your employee base, and watching your evolution.

I very much see your growth, and we’re working on it together. It’s been really fun to see that, a hundred percent.

I think we said that years ago, “Let’s dominate this world together!” Yeah, yeah. And we’re still doing it. Still doing it.

The employees are a big part of that. I mean, one, everyone will have a successful future, and what speaks to the greatest level is we have … we had two first-borns within our team. And now we have two second-borns on their way. So that’s super exciting as well.

And so, that speaks highest to just the feedback I get. If people are comfortable enough in life to take that next step in their families, and in their contributions to the community, and to their lives, then that is what is the best feedback for me as a business owner. So, really cool to see that.

Multigenerational business. It is! Here it comes. Yeah, I mean, and I talk about it too. We’re making these decisions, we have to put these two kiddos through college. I mean, that’s … I don’t want to put all that weight on m, but now we have even more mouths to feed as a business. Yeah.

Any final thoughts, too, just … on your mind, that you wanna share? Describe?

Hmm, final thoughts. That’s a great question. It’s okay to take risk with support. Yeah.

As a business owner, it’s a risky … we’ve put a lot of time, energy, and money into our investment of owning a business. And with that support aspect, with that knowledge, with that feedback. I don’t know, the QuickBooks thing. All the number analyzation – that’s not my strong suit. If I can have support in that, and delegate key responsibilities that I’m not prepared to take on, or that wouldn’t be successful for me to take on, then it makes it worth it taking those risks.

The right people in the right place. Right people, right place. Hundred percent. I’d love to have your team as part of every business, and have a whole huge … just as many administrators as there are producers. It would be incredible, but that may not be feasible as a small business.

So we can lean into your resources, and I can feel supported and guided and led, and we have our trajectory, and we can take out loans because I can demonstrate anticipated cash balances, and just have that backing … then I feel much more confident – and less stressed – as a business owner.

I mean, ultimately it’s reducing stress. And so, if I can help delegate some of those stressors, and I can get support in the stress I need to hold, then I feel much more confident taking those risks.

We’re reducing your stresses often in those meetings. Yes. It’s incredible. You’re coming in high strung sometimes, and by the end of it, you’re just [exhales]. We’ve gotten … we’ve had some tight months.

And especially in the transition from startup to mature business, and we’re taking those first real strides as a mature business. Yeah, there’s definitely some hard – mainly low cash balances, end of the winter, how are we gonna do this? Kind of conversations.

That’s so funny – that reminds me, there’s been some of those 30-year-old decisions that, you know, we’re talking about Moses’ 40-year-old decisions, right? You would go rogue when it came to cash balances, like expeditedly pay down debts, or make big purchases … It’s true.

Or get excited about the bonus payouts that we had, cause cash was heavy. Yeah. And I remember reminding you so many times, like, “Moses, you should talk to me about it before doing this, and this is what’s gonna happen because of that.” And then it happened. Yeah, hundred percent.

And now, we’re building up those cash … and part of that … yeah. Also, too, talking earlier, we can lead with our heart, we can lead with our gut, but let’s just not lead with the emotions.

You made a lot of emotional purchases. Yeah, hundred percent. Well it’s hard, you know. It”s boom and bust. Or not so much bust on our end, but it’s hard not to see profitability and just look towards investing. It’s very important, what I’ve learned, to invest in the right places.

Investing in your experience. Awesome investment, wonderful returns. And investing in the right people, and the right equipment, very very important. Yeah. Part of it.

Well, cool, thank you. Yeah, thanks Zeb.

So we’ll keep reducing stresses, buying you more time, more trips out, get you started on an ice cream business if we decide that ends up being the next venture. We’ll keep driving up profitability and, to a point earlier that was said, too, investing in education, and in your team. Because as you’re investing in that, no matter what’s going to happen with the economy, no matter what’s going to happen broader anything else, we cannot take back that lesson learned. Yeah.

Whether you apply what you have gone through with Zebulon and Momentum, or the ice cream business, or post-retirement, you will always have that experience with you. Oh yeah. Yeah, what a wonderful life to live. I’m so glad that this is a part of it.

Something I always dreamed of. I mean, being an employee my whole life, you always dream of being a business owner. And here I am a business owner, now what do I do? I’ve never done this before. And so, really gonna be exciting to see how this just continues to move forward.

Well, thank you. Yeah, thank you Zeb. I look forward to the next seven years of this journey. Yeah, me too, me too. Should be a good time.